Endoscope Expert Frank Majerowicz Shares His Top Tips

Apr 1, 2025

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Endoscopes, biomed, fiber tech medical, ISO certification, colonoscope, angulation knobs, control body, bending section, distal tip, light guide fibers, preventative maintenance, leak testing, repair cost, patient safety, high level disinfection.

SPEAKERS
Chyrill Sandrini, Frank Majerowicz

Chyrill Sandrini 00:11
Welcome back to HTM Insider. I’m Chyrill with MultiMedical Systems, your host, and today I have on my friend Frank Majerowicz of FiberTech Medical he’s been in the industry a long time, and I think today you’re going to learn a lot about endoscopes, and we’re going to discuss why a biomed needs to learn about endoscopes and best practice. So this is going to be episode one of two episodes. So tune in today, and then we’ll remind you to tune in again for episode number two. So Frank. Thank you so much for coming on today. I’m I know you, and I go back, I think 11 ish years, I’ve been to your shop. I’ve enjoyed your company, Jimmy, your entire team is amazing there at FiberTech. So without further ado, why don’t you introduce yourself to the HTM world out there?

Frank Majerowicz 01:08
Yeah, yeah. Thanks. Cherelle and so hello htm world. My name is Frank Majerowicz, and I’m one of the co-founders and still an active partner with a company called FiberTech Medical. I started my career in endoscopes with working for Olympus in the mid 80s. We started a company called FiberTech in 1989 so we’ve been in in the world of repairing and supporting endoscopes now for 35 years. And so we’ve seen a lot and learned a lot along the way, and I’m happy to share and answer any advice, any advice or insight that I can help with. And

Chyrill Sandrini 01:48
I think it’s important to note that when you’re working with a endoscope repair company that they are ISO certified, do you want to talk about that for a second Frank?

Frank Majerowicz 01:58
So that is an important question, as many of you may know, there’s, there’s a lot of endoscope service options in the market today. When we started fiber tech in 1989 that we were one of maybe two or three companies outside of the OEMs. Today, there might be 40 or 50. And while ISO certification is not a requirement for a third party service company, it is something that I think should add a level of comfort to any facility or biomed looking for an option. ISO certainly, I think provides a higher level of comfort that the company you chose is going to be doing things the right way,

Chyrill Sandrini 02:43
Exactly. And if you haven’t met me and I haven’t taught a class on endoscope best practice on care and handling, um, maybe have come to your facility and done a pm inspection on your endoscopes. You gotta listen to this, because you can affect change in your facilities, in your departments, and save money. So today, we’re really going to focus on educating you, first on a general, flexible endoscope and its parts, so you’re familiar with the vernacular and how this endoscope works. So that’s our focus today. So Frank, I want you to show you know, you have a scope there for us to see. What do you have in front of you today?

Speaker 1 03:29
Yeah, so today, I think we’ll, we’ll talk about the basics, and you’re right. Chyrill, to many people in biomeds, and it’s like a black box, okay? You’re familiar with the outside of it. You may be comfortable holding it and picking it up, or you may not be yet, but I think what’s going to be helpful today is we’ll talk about some of the common issues that occur with scopes, show you some of the common components and give you a much better understanding, and hopefully you’ll feel more comfortable next time you have to pick one up. So in front of us today, I do have, I do have a full colonoscope sitting here in front of me that will reference at some point during this conversation. We have a bending section, which we’ll talk about shortly. We have the outer cover of that the bending rubber will take a look at. I have a channel in front of us, a damaged one at that, and the CCD and a couple other small parts sitting here as well.

Chyrill Sandrini 04:30
Okay, let’s talk about how long is a colonoscope?

Frank Majerowicz 04:36
Oh, you’re really testing my 30 years of experience here on that one. So let’s just say it’s about six foot long.

Chyrill Sandrini 04:43
Yes, six foot long. So it’s very important. Technicians, when you’re out there and you’re handling these endoscopes, they’re very delicate. And when you hear about the price of what these endoscopes cost new usually it’s most it’s more than most vehicles out there, mm. So you want to handle them with care. You want to know how to handle these endoscopes and a six foot long colonoscope, the insertion tube, can get away from you if not managed and handled correctly. So I’m five foot five. If I held it up, it’s longer than myself. Okay, just take that into consideration. That’s just an insertion tube. That’s not the rest of the endoscope. So, Frank, let’s just start with the control body of the endoscope. Can you tell us the names of each part of the control body and what their function is?

Speaker 1 05:31
Yeah, absolutely. And to add to a comment you just made, Cheryl, let’s talk about cost for a minute. So the average endoscope now brand new is 35 to $40,000 for a brand new endoscope. And you’re right. It’s about the price of a well used to be the price of a car. Now, I don’t know if you can buy a car for $35,000 but maybe a nice used one. But yeah, so you’re looking at 3540 plus $1,000 for a brand new scope and the average repair cost. It’s not uncommon that one of these scopes goes back to Olympus or the OEM, and you could be looking at a 10 to $12,000 repair just one repair incident. Our average repair at fiber tech is even $2,500 that’s the average repair. So very costly device to repair, very fragile instrument, and the more that you can learn how to take better care of them, how to handle them, how to prevent that damage, it’s it can be a pretty substantial impact to the facility that you find yourself at. So to that point, what we’re holding here is a an Olympus colonoscope, okay, so just to go over a little bit of nomenclature, so when, when you hear anybody referring to a scope, this is called the control body, okay, so the head, this is called the control body of the scope, where the physician will grip the scope to maneuver it. These are going to be your angulation knobs. Okay? They call these the angulation control knobs. On a standard colonoscope and gastroscope, you’re going to have two big knobs at the top. One is going to be right and left. One’s going to articulate the tip up and down. Okay, on some of your smaller scopes, sharill, like a bronchoscope or a uretoscope, they’re only going to have a lever because their angulation capability is only two way up and down, whereas, again, the colonoscope and a gastroscope is going to have four way angulation with two knobs.

Chyrill Sandrini 07:33
Can you show the end Frank? So they can understand what the angulation is that the tip of the colonoscope and show them how when you’re doing up, down, right, left?

Speaker 1 07:43
Absolutely so, if we come back to this, we have the control knobs that we just spoke about. And then this is the other end of the scope. You’re looking at the distal end of the scope. This is not what you will see in the field. This has the outer sheath peeled back some so at some point in the conversation, we might talk about what’s underneath that black box, if you will. But you can see here, as I turn one of these control knobs, this tip will articulate, okay, so that’s going to be up, and we flip the other, turn the knob the other way, and you’re going to go down, okay? And then, of course, right and left. So you have good control. With that control, with this functionality, comes problems, so we’ll talk about those shortly.

Chyrill Sandrini 08:27
Yeah, and you know, been doing this a little while, and as you know, there’s a little lever up there that’s on top of the angulation knobs. And let’s talk about that, because I’ve seen it so many times. And if a biomed, if you don’t know about this, this little lever, you can do damage to the endoscope. So we’ve got to make sure that you have this lever in the correct position. Frank, you want to show that one?

Speaker 1 08:54
Yeah. So right up at the top of the scope, back to the back to the control body, back to the control knobs. Right above the control knob is a lever. It’s called the locking mechanism. Okay, you will see an F on there with an arrow that F stands for free. Okay, so if you’re in the if you’re pointing, if you slide this over to the free position, that’s telling you that the knobs are free, and the tip will turn freely when you angulate it. If I were to angulate this scope and pull this lever back to the other side, that locks the knob. Okay, so now you can see the tip did not move. Okay, we’re locked in. Okay. Now that’s helpful during a procedure. If the if the physician is in the colon, he’s in a certain position he wants to lock in so he doesn’t lose his spot or lose what he’s focused in on. He can lock that knob, and the tip will stay there when he takes his hand off the control knob. However, when not in a procedure and the scope is just in your hands or in the closet or being cleaned, you never want this to be locked. Do you want this to be free? So the tip will move freely when you articulate things, okay, if not, as cherl had mentioned, alluded to, it can cause some damage. If this is locked and you try to angulate this or move this with your move this with your hands. You’re putting extra stress on the cables, the inner components of the scope. It’s just not good for the scope. So first thing is always make sure that these are in the unlocked position and this is freely moving. Okay?

Chyrill Sandrini 10:32
I like to equate it to having your emergency brake on. You know, we put an emergency brake on if you really hit the gas, how you can go forward. You can eventually go forward. But have you done internal damage? And since you can’t see inside that endoscope, you don’t know. All you’re going to know is maybe it’s not functioning correctly, and that could be the cause of it. So that’s very important for you to know, especially if you get involved in doing preventative maintenance inspections on these endoscopes. So Frank, you want to show the channels there like although it looks like where you could put something in,

Speaker 1 11:03
Yeah. So absolutely. So I think we’ll start. So if we just talk about the nomenclature of the scope and some of the common components we already talked about, the control body, the angulation control knobs and the locks at the very top of the scope. We call this the control head, okay? And if you look up there, you’re going to have four different buttons. Now, depending on what kind of scope it is, sometimes, usually it’s four, sometimes there may be five buttons up there. These buttons are programmable, so that during the procedure, the physician can program and utilize these buttons to activate different features of the scope. One of them is always used to freeze the image on the screen. One of them is always used to take a picture. Okay, during the procedure. The other ones can be programmed to do, you know, a variety of different functions that the scope you know has the capability to do. So keep in mind, one button will always be freezing a picture. One will always be taking the picture, and typically the other buttons are programmed to the preference of the facility, or the perfect preference of the physician using the scope. Okay, so again, this is called the the control body and the control head of the scope, as we go on down the scope, right below the control body, you lead into the insertion tube. Okay, so, again, as we mentioned in the beginning, the insertion tube on a colonoscope is nearly six foot long. Okay. At the end of the insertion tube, you have the portion of the scope, which we call the bending section. Obviously, it’s called the bending section because it bends, it just makes sense. So this is the bending section area of the scope, and at the very tip, we call this the distal tip. This is the distal tip of the scope. Not sure if you can get a good view here a little bit, but you can see at the distal tip you have the you have a large opening, which is the opening of the biopsy channel. That is a multi purpose channel opening here it’s used for suctioning. So it’s your suction channel, and is also the biopsy channel. So when an instrument is inserted into the scope from the head of the scope. This is where that instrument will come out, instrument being, in most cases, a grasper or biopsy forcep. Also at the distal tip, you can see a series of lenses at the very tip. One of those is going to be the camera, the one in this the large lens in the center is the camera, and then flanking both sides of that center lens are going to be your lights. We call those the light guide lens. Okay, and then that silver mushroom, or silver dot you see at the end on some of the newer scopes, that’s black and not silver, but that’s going to be your air water nozzle. And the purpose of that component there’s actually, you can’t see it here, but there’s an opening on one side of that nozzle, and the purpose of that is to flush air and water over the lens and over the camera lens. Obviously, that lens gets dirty during a procedure, and you need to have the ability to keep that clean throughout the procedure.

Chyrill Sandrini 14:19
How delicate is that into that endoscope there?

Speaker 1 14:22
Yeah, so when you talk about some of the common damage to an endoscope and really what to be careful with this section of the scope, I usually say this is your most delicate part of the scope. Okay, the tip of it is made out of a plastic material. The lenses are made out of glass. And keep in mind again, back to the six foot long tube. If it slips out of your hand, it makes it to the floor, you’re going to hear this as it hits the floor. And many scopes come in with cracked lenses. Many scopes come in with this. This black cap at the tip crack. Act it, and it’s just a it’s just a common thing that we see, and it’s, it’s preventable. It’s simply from the tip of the scope, hitting the countertop or hitting the floor accidentally causing those cracks.

Chyrill Sandrini 15:16
You want to explain what the numbers are on the insertion too?

Speaker 1 15:20
Yeah, the numbers are important during the procedure. Okay, so it basically marks the centimeters of the scope, okay, as it goes down the tube. And it allows the physician during a procedure, basically, to know how far he’s in the colon. Okay, so it’s just a marking measurement reference for the physician during the case, and he can it gives him a good idea as to where he is in the procedure and how far into the colon the scope might be. I’m going to go back to the distal tip here again with you. Cheryl, so when you pick up a scope in the field, I mentioned earlier that a portion of this is already taken apart. This is what we call the bending rubber. The bending rubber is a thin rubber material, and it covers the outer five or six inches of the scope. So when you pick up the scope in the field, you’re not going to see the silver colored distal end here that’s going to be covered by the sheath, just like you see here. This sheath is very fragile because it’s thin. And it needs to be thin because if you put something on the tip that was thick, it would reduce the flexibility of the distal tip. So because of that, by the design of the scope, we’re stuck having to put this thin outer sheath on there. This sheath is very prone to getting cuts, nicks, holes in it and leaks in it. So during the leak test procedure that every facility should be doing after every case, this is a common area of the scope that you that they will find an external leak, okay?

Chyrill Sandrini 16:58
And one of the reasons, Frank, tell them why? Tell them. I tell them, why the angulation and why? Where it comes from, because of passing this sharp instrument when the scope is fully angulated,

Speaker 1 17:14
Yeah, so Well, there is, there’s, there’s many, there’s many reasons why you can get a leak in this outer sheath. It could be a sharp finger nail. It could be the scope was put in the sink with some other sharp instruments. It could be this tip dragged across the countertop or hit the floor. A lot of different ways that you can get a leak in this outer sheath. One thing to keep in mind, and I don’t think we’re going to spend a lot of time on leak testing on this particular episode, but when you’re leak testing, or when the user is leak testing, the scope, you do want to angulate the tip like this in all four directions, okay? And the reason you want to do that is because this is a rubber material, and so many times you might have a pinhole in this, in this rubber sheath. And if you just keep this distal end straight like this, you don’t see the leak, okay? And not until you angulate it will you stretch the rubber, open up the hole, open, expose the leak, and then you’ll start to see the leak. Okay? So many, many leaks and pinholes are missed because of improper leak testing and not angulating that tip so that angulation in all four directions is a very important step not to be missed when they’re performing the leak test and

Chyrill Sandrini 18:37
when they’re looking at the bending rubber bending section, the epoxy seals if they’re going to do a preventative maintenance inspection, and when the seals start to turn gray opaque, there’s chips in the epoxies. There’s anything that they could, you know, visually see on the outside. Should it go in for repair? Yeah.

Frank Majerowicz 18:56
So that’s a really good a really good question that a lot of people don’t understand. So again, right here, the seal on the top of this is missing because the bending rubber has been cut off, okay. But if you look at the bottom here, you can see a shiny, you know, just a small about the size of my finger here, okay, so when this bending sheath is put onto the scope to help hold it in place and secure it to the scope, there’s an adhesive ring at the bottom and there’s an adhesive ring at the top. Okay, when those adhesive rings are brand new, like this one, you can see it’s nice, black and shiny, almost matches the the look and texture of the insertion tube itself. What happens to that is both of these adhesive seals over time, just from the routine cleaning of the scope, the chemicals that the scope is subjected to during the cleaning process, and just the manipulation of the tube and the distal tip, over time, those adhesives will break down. Okay, and then. Break down in a series of progression, okay, the first thing that usually happens is, from the chemical solutions, they’ll start to turn gray. They’ll start to look discolored. They’ll start to look gray, a gray glue joint, or a gray adhesive seal. That, by itself, is not an immediate reason to send it in for repair, but it is a sign. It is a sign for the user that the seals are starting to wear. Okay, what you want to look for is if they start to become brittle, if the adhesive joint sealant starts to become brittle, and if it starts to chip, or if it starts to lift away from the insertion tube or the bending rubber. Okay, so again, a discolored, gray seal by itself, is not a reason to send the scope in immediately to have that replaced. But again, it is stage one of that adhesive starting to wear and starting to break down. What you want to do when you see that is you want to take a closer look. I recommend all of our customers to have a magnifying glass, whether it be an eye loop or a reading magnifying glass that they can, you know, get a close up view, magnified view of these adhesives and see if there’s any chipping of the edges, or see if the edges are starting to lift away from the tube itself. Now when you see that, that’s when it’s critical that this gets sent in for repair. You want to have those seals replaced one before they start leaking and open up the potential risk of fluid intrusion and a much larger repair. But two, when you start to see the lifting and the chipping of those, it could become a cleaning hazard. It’s a hidden areas where bacteria can get and it’s going to make it difficult for those areas to be cleaned.

Chyrill Sandrini 21:59
Yep, 100% so before we move on to anything else, I want you to talk about how fragile, even though it looks like a garden hose, let’s talk about the glass that’s inside a flexible endoscope,

Frank Majerowicz 22:15
yeah? So inside of the scope, I think you might be referring your question to the to the light guide vibers,

Chyrill Sandrini 22:22
right? I exactly, but I just wanted, I wanted you to tell the audience Frank, because I would just know how, how flex, how delicate it is, even though it looks similar to a garden hose and all the components inside it, how delicate they are, especially the light guy, fibers,

Speaker 1 22:41
Yeah, so, absolutely so. And that’s a really good, a good discussion point. So Cheryl is correct when you hold and when you hold a scope in your hand. Okay, you hold this. It’s called an insertion tube, but you can refer to it as a garden hose. It feels pretty sturdy. Okay, it feels like this can be flexed and take a lot, but keep in mind, what you don’t see is, on the inside of this tube, there’s real estate is limited. Inside this tube, there’s a biopsy suction channel, there’s an air channel, there’s a water channel. There are wires in there. There are sometimes an auxiliary water channel in there. There are, there are fiber bundles in there, glass fiber bundles that distribute the light from one end of the scope coming out of the light source back to the tip of the scope at the end of the insertion to appear. So there’s a lot of components packed in this tube, and there’s really not any extra space. So what that means is, if you, if you over coil the scope, okay, if you, if you coil this too tightly, right now, it looks like this tube can handle this, but keep in mind, you’re putting a lot of pressure on all those components that are inside of this tube, they’re going to wear out faster if you routinely do something like this, or they could be damaged from one event like this, of over coiling the scope. The other thing to keep in mind is if, if the outer tube here is kinked, if it’s stepped on, we’ve seen carts roll over these tubes and they get dented. Okay, we’ve seen a common area for these tubes to kink. Are up at the top of the insertion tube right before it leads into the body. Because during the procedure, the physician is holding the control handle up here, manipulating the knobs with his hand, but he’s also maneuvering the scope back and forth, trying to navigate it through the colon. And as this is occurring, it’s putting a lot of pressure on the insertion tube right here, before it connects into this control body. And oftentimes you see, when you see scopes hanging in the closet, you might see kinks. Is, we call them buckles, but you might see a buckle or a kink at the top of the insertion tube, right below the boot before it goes into this body. And that’s a sign that the outer tube is wearing. It’s breaking down and it’s kinked. And what’s going to happen is these dents and crushes and buckles in the tube. They all eventually, maybe not right away, but they will all eventually affect the inner components of the scope as well. Okay, and one of those inner components that we just started talking about is what we call the light guide fiber bundle. So the way the light travels through an endoscope is basically old fashioned fiber optics. Okay, it’s a fiber optic strand of light, fibers made out of glass. There’s several 1000 fibers all spun together in a bundle, and they connect from the distal tip of the scope all the way back to the connector. So this is the connector of a 180 scope. But the 190 scope is a different connector, but the the internal mechanics are the same. This is the connector that plugs into the light source. Okay? So that fiber bundle will start here that goes into the light source and run all the way through the scope. So as time goes by, those light fibers, Cheryl, will start to break even from normal usage in a perfect world after time after the scope has been used several 100 times all the flexing and twisting and manipulating the tube of the scope, those fibers, there’s glass fibers, will naturally start to break. So your light output will, over time, just reduce from 100% output down, okay, and down to a point where it’ll be noticeable during a procedure, noticeable on the screen, that the light, that the scope looks dim, and oftentimes, when the when the image on the screen looks dim, that’s that’s a short typically, an indication that that light fiber, there’s enough fibers broken, that the lights not getting through.

Chyrill Sandrini 27:13
Okay, do you hear that? What he’s saying when you’re getting the call that you’re something’s wrong with the light source, the processor, and this could be in several different type of endoscopes. There’s things that could be going on with the scope that have nothing to do with the tower itself. It’s not suctioning, the water’s not working. We have bad lighting. You’re gonna get those complaints to the biomed shop. Hey, I need you to come look at this. It could be that scope. So don’t always take it as the tower is in in trouble. Maybe try a different scope and see if you’re getting the same result. But he has a an insertion tube there that could show you a kink when he’s showing you the kinks on that endoscope that’s kind of like trying to suck through a straw that you bent and you can’t suck through it correctly, or you can’t push things through it correctly. So just, you know, look at the scope that when you get the call, when you get into the the endoscopy suite, and look at that physical soap. Do you see buckling? Do you see damage to that endoscope. And then you can look at your tower and see if there’s a problem there. Don’t you think? Frank, would you agree? Yeah,

Speaker 1 28:26
absolutely. And then here is, actually, this is the fiber optic bundle we were just talking about. Okay, so you can see how these fibers are, are wound together inside this bundle. But when you look at the end and you cut it off, all of these are individual glass hairs, okay? And if there’s one break, if there’s a break in one air, keep in mind this bundle is now 12 feet long because the insertion tube is six foot, and the the U cord that connects behind the scope back to the processor is another six foot. So this is 12 foot long. So each glass strand here is a solid connection from one end to the other end, and as one hair breaks, okay, the light can’t get by now. In reality, it takes, it would take at least 20 to 30% of these to break before the light will start to get dim. Okay, dim to a point where it’s going to affect the procedure. But once you start to get beyond 20% breakage, people, physicians, the staff, will typically start to notice the light getting dim, the image looking a little dim. And as Cheryl mentioned it was a good point. So if you’re caught into a room, or if somebody your facility is complaining that the scope looks dim, the first thing to do, obviously, is to check the scope on in another room. Okay, let’s make sure it’s not the bulb. Let’s make sure it’s not a setting on the light source that’s that’s creating that. This. So the first thing I would do is plug in another scope. If another scope looks bright enough, then that’s your first indicator that it might not be the processor or the light source. It might be something wrong with the scope. Okay, so there is a series of things that you know, troubleshooting steps that you can go through before you call a service company, or before you ship the scope out for repair, you know, let’s move the scope to another room, plug in another scope. Let’s make sure that it is indeed the scope and not a setting on the light source or the processor that was accidentally set to the wrong setting.

Chyrill Sandrini 30:37
I think you and I could talk scopes all day long. Frank,

Speaker 1 30:39
We could talk for three we could talk for an entire day here. I think we try to keep it as interesting as possible.

Chyrill Sandrini 30:46
Oh, I think it is interesting. And every time that I’ve gone into a biomed shop and I do like an in service training or take somebody along to do a preventative maintenance inspection on their fleet, I know that the biomeds out there, they want to learn. They want more information. They want to affect, you know, patient care and patient safety and reduce cost. So this is just the beginning of our endoscope discussion. And this is just flexible. We’re just talking colonoscopes today. There’s, you know, gi scopes, there’s urology scopes, there’s so many we haven’t even gotten to the scopes that are in surgery yet. So I know the half hour has gone by super fast today, and we hope that you’ve really enjoyed it, and I always enjoy getting with you. Frank, we end every episode with the wow your word or words of wisdom. So we’re hanging on the edge of our seat, Frank, what is your WoW today?

Speaker 1 31:44
Oh, my WoW today is it’s a reactive world, right? And oftentimes, the challenge that I think a biomed has, or the or the challenge that an endoscope repair company has, including the OEMs, is that when a scope breaks, everybody’s in a panic, okay? And they usually break on a Monday morning. When they have Tuesdays a busy day, we need a loaner. We don’t have enough scopes. The doctors are yelling because we’re waiting too long, because two scopes are broken, and that’s because, that’s because it’s a reactive world. It’s a reactive scenario, and I think that by having a better understanding of the scopes, by learning how to inspect the scopes, okay, we can hopefully limit those reactive scenarios and become more proactive and and reduce those Monday morning headaches where there’s not enough scopes in the closet because they’re too many or broken

Chyrill Sandrini 32:43
100% and what we’re going to try to do through these episodes on endoscopy training overall is to give you the education that you might have not received before, and so you can be a better steward of the equipment. And when you go in there, you have an education and a background of how to troubleshoot. We’ll also list Frank’s information, because I know Frank and his team are always available if you have any questions, or if you want to know more information, maybe you’re interested in even having you know someone come out to your facility and do some endoscopy training. I know the fiber tech team is amazing, and they’d be happy to do so. My word of wisdom for this episode is treat every endoscope as if it’s dirty. A broken scope doesn’t always get the full HLD, high level disinfection done to it properly. So always wear gloves. Every endoscope is dirty. That colonoscope goes, you know where, and so protect yourself your work deaths in your workplace as well. So thanks for joining us again on htm. Insider, Frank, it’s been a joy having you on this first episode, and make sure you share this with your friends. You can find us any place that you listen to your podcast, Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube, and of course, if you listen on tech nation, every episode that you listen to of htm, insider is worth one CE credit, so thanks again for tuning in and Frank, I will catch you on The next episode. Thank

Frank Majerowicz 34:12
you, Cheryl, okay. Thank you. You